[PODCAST] #336: Scientific Consensus vs. Dissent (Part 2) – Are We Even Having A Discussion?

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This show continues a series that will examine the concept of scientific consensus and contrast it with voices of the dissenters who find value in minority scientific opinions, theories and conclusions. Today we ask the question: is there any way to bridge the gap? Darrell Becker will be co-hosting all episodes in this series.

Monologue:
-Brett discusses how little he knows about the vaccine debate for 30 minutes

Discussion:
What is the Political Debate Contract?

And how does it relate to this flowchart?
-Evaluating the Observations-Feelings-Needs-Requests of yourself
-Identifying motivations
-Identifying splinters, avoiding any harsh "touch" upon the splinters, demonstrating care, respect and remorse when splinters are accidentally touched upon
-Does some of the hostility come from an unmet need to know?

Background:
"My thesis is that the criteria by which individuals are deemed qualified or unqualified to become professionals involve not just technical knowledge as is generally assumed, but also attitude—in particular, attitude toward working within an assigned political and ideological framework. I contend, for example, that all tests of technical knowledge, such as the Graduate Record Examinations (GRE) or the Law School Admission Test (LSAT), are at the same time tests of attitude and that the examinations used to assess professional qualification are no exception. I consider in detail how the neutral-looking technical questions on such examinations probe the candidate's attitude.

The qualifying attitude, I find, is an uncritical, subordinate one, which allows professionals to take their ideological lead from their employers and appropriately fine-tune the outlook that they bring to their work. The resulting professional is an obedient thinker, an intellectual property whom employers can trust to experiment, theorize, innovate and create safely within the confines of an assigned ideology. The political and intellectual timidity of today's most highly educated employees is no accident." -Jeff Schmidt Disciplined Minds : A Critical Look at Salaried Professionals and the Soul-Battering System That Shapes Their Lives.

Look Closer:
Darrell's Site: Voluntary Visions - http://voluntaryvisions.com/

Bringing Much-Needed Sanity to the Vaccine Debate, by Kevin Geary - https://medium.com/@therebootedbody/bringing-much-needed-sanity-to-the-vaccine-debate-e143f089bfd1

The CDC whistleblower William W. Thompson: Final (for now) roundup and epilogue - http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/08/29/the-cdc-whistleblower-william-w-thompson-final-for-now-roundup-and-epilogue/

Anti-vaccination movement - http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Anti-vaccination_movement

Autism Debate with Jenny McCarthy, part two - http://thedoctorstv.com/videos/autism-debate-with-jenny-mccarthy-part-two--6

Darrell's Communication Glossary - http://schoolsucksproject.com/practical-definitions-voluntary-communication-by-darrell-becker/

Disciplined Minds : A Critical Look at Salaried Professionals and the Soul-Battering System That Shapes Their Lives - http://disciplinedminds.tripod.com/

Scientific Consensus and the Argument From Authority - https://skeptoid.com/blog/2013/04/09/scientific-consensus-and-the-argument-from-authority

T&H Trivium Resources - https://www.tragedyandhope.com/trivium/

Ignaz Philipp Semmelweis, the prophet of bacteriology - http://web.archive.org/web/20080404214853/http://www.general-anaesthesia.com/semmelweis.htm

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8 comments

  1. Hey Brett, You are doing some really important and valuable work and I commend and thank you. This comment is in regard to your vaccination section of podcast #336. It’s a very contentious subject and I have to say that the truth is completely irrelevant as it is the wrong debate. What is getting missed in all the hub bub is that THe REAL QUESTION is… is a person free to seek his own council and make his own choices or is someone else going to forcibly inject foreign matter into his (or her) body? For a society which appears horrified at the act of rape, I ask you, how is this not at least equal if not potentially worse. I do believe a mortally violent response to such a threat is not out of line.

  2. Very interesting discussion. I recently started looking deeper into the vaccination controversy myself. One grammatical issue is that “autism” is a clinical diagnosis, in contrast to neurological disorders in general. I also find it a bit creepy that the title of the U.S. vaccine court is the “Office of Special Masters.” Here’s some more information that I found intriguing:

    Introduction to Autism Information
    http://www.nvic.org/Vaccines-and-Diseases/Autism.aspx

    Influenza Vaccine Package Inserts
    http://www.nvic.org/vaccines-and-diseases/Influenza/Influenza-Vaccine-Package-Inserts.aspx

    The swine flu fraud of 1976, on 60 Minutes
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8elE7Ct1jWw

    Recent Italian Court Decisions on Vaccines and Autism
    http://www.ageofautism.com/2015/01/recent-italian-court-decisions-on-vaccines-and-autism.html

    Professor John Walker Smith Exonerated in Autism MMR Case
    http://www.ageofautism.com/2012/03/professor-john-walker-smith-exonerated-in-autism-mmr-case.html

    86 Research Papers Supporting the Vaccine/Autism Link
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/220807175/86-Research-Papers-Supporting-the-Vaccine-Autism-Link

  3. Another good question to add to the flowchart before engaging in a discussion is if the person who created the “rules for debate” or the prescripts for the flowchart is willing to apply the questions to him/herself. If no, hypocrisy. If yes, self-enlightenment, the eradication of black-and-white thinking, and the expansion of consciousness. 1) Can Darreell imagine anything that will change his mind on the Trivium or NVC? 2) If his belief in the Trivium and NVC is shown to be faulty – partially or wholly – will he stop using those parts and wholes? 3) Is he prepared to abide by basic principles of reason: such as defining key terms (e.g., science) and accepting more valid and reliable data and evidence for his claims rather than just poking holes in others’? I think the flowchart is too either-or and not enough both-and. Could easily lead to shutting off a valid debate even before it begins if only one party is to be asked the question and the other to determine the rules.

    • Hi Donald,
      Sorry for responding so late to this post. As Brett and I have mentioned, much of the action regarding discussion of these shows seems to be on the Facebook group, and as this site has seemed to be inactive I’ve not spent much time here, except to download shows to listen to.
      To your questions and concerns:
      Yes, if I was to have a discussion with the flow chart I would be following it as well.
      “1) Can Darreell imagine anything that will change his mind on the Trivium or NVC?”

      Yes. I’ve had things continue to change my mind on these subjects, especially as to how they are used and taught, and how I use them and teach them.

      “2) If his belief in the Trivium and NVC is shown to be faulty – partially or wholly – will he stop using those parts and wholes?

      Yes. This is why I’ve chosen to avoid certain parts of NVC which are more commonly taught. I will continue to be looking at these subjects with a critical eye.

      “3) Is he prepared to abide by basic principles of reason: such as defining key terms (e.g., science) and accepting more valid and reliable data and evidence for his claims rather than just poking holes in others’?”

      Yes. If you notice particular moments in a podcast I made where I didn’t define a term, please let me know. I spoke mostly of specific instances and generalizations which appeared to have supportive evidence. It seems that “poking holes in ideas” is part of critical thinking.

      “I think the flowchart is too either-or and not enough both-and. Could easily lead to shutting off a valid debate even before it begins if only one party is to be asked the question and the other to determine the rules.”

      Agreed, and I believe that many objections to this flow chart were referred to during the podcast.

      I hope I have been responsive to your comment, please let me know if you wish for further clarification.
      🙂

  4. I’m really curious about the timing of this subject. There appears on social media and blogs a wide spread effort to force this into a polarizing issue across Americans. We began our family’s research nearly ten years ago and it takes a long time to research this issue and the rabbit hole goes very deep. The official policy of forced immunization (with forced being the real concern) has multiple layers of conflicting interests. In addition, the theory and the practice are not at all the same, the standards of efficacy are much lower for vaccines vs. other medical treatments, but these issues are generally hidden from the lay person. You must be cautious of graphs indicating trends, many of these diseases were purposely narrowed in definition to show a decline in incidence after vaccines were introduced, and others have “hockey stick” shapes that hide much larger downward trends that predate many vaccines by decades. I would recommend Dr. Tenpenny as she has many questions online that are a good starting point for investigation. I would also recommend Dr. Wendy Lydall who has numerous citations that call much of the common refutations for vaccine safety into question. I would also question why this industry needs blanket immunity from liability by the federal government if these things are safe?

    As far as the autism link, I really don’t think that should be the only factor to sway people. I think people should be just as concerned about the incidence of simian viruses found in vaccines, the inclusion of sterilizing agents in vaccines sent to third world countries, and the stockpiles of thimerisol containing vaccines reserved for those on Medicare/Medicaid. All of this on top of research that any immunization before the blood brain barrier is fully developed sends loads of toxins and viruses into developing brains which questions the official schedule and the horror stories of the HPV vaccine and well documented evidence that flu vaccines are more likely to spread flu’s, are not usually a match for naturally virulent strains in a particular year and not usually effective when they are.

    There is also this open question of what happens when the next outbreak of an entirely new virus occurs generations from now in a populous that only enjoys temporary artificial immunity and has never faced a wild strain. What about all the research and knowledge that is lost because medical professionals are no longer trained to treat and cure such infections. It would seem like a no brainier that perfect prevention is just impossible in objective reality, so I would rather have solid plan b that knows how to deal with such failures.

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    • This comment appears to not relate in any meaningful way to the discussion in this podcast, and I’d consider it spam. I apologize if I have just missed the connection completely.

  6. zapraszamy – – that is not harmonious at all – cannot find “Random Morphing Into Karl Lagerfeld for No Reason” box
    Am finding it difficult – not to understand this – to absorb this poddie. I know it is valuable and different from my unstructured , rushed thinking so am going back to the start …..
    PS Where is the pleasure in people who agree with you all the time? I do not understand why so many seem to HATE differning opinion , except I do now it is the school. The textbook encarceration of the grey matter.

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